Theology of Christian Discipleship Discussion Continues

The discussion of predestination so far, however, has barely skimmed the surface of my initial post.

If I had intended to post to just stimulate an intellectual discussion, then I might as well not post it in the first place. We would be like the theologians in the Middle Ages who spent countless hours discussing "How many angels can stand on the point of a pin?" (No, it's not "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?")

However, if you had been holding fast to belief that there is only free will without predestination prior to now, then the introduction of the simultaneous free will and predestination concept should cause a paradigm shift in your view of how to pursue Christian discipleship and Christian ministry.

For instance, without predestination, evangelism would be done with a shotgun approach. Spread your resources to maximize coverage. After all, you don't want to let anyone fall between the cracks.

Predestination, however, would require that you spend a lot of time listening to the Lord and following the leading of the Holy Spirit. After all, only God knows whom he had predestined and what he wants you to do in His plan.

Your view of what is "good works" and what is "dead works" would also shift.

Without predestination, the criteria for being "good work" and "dead work" would be based on what is in your heart. Are you motivated to do it because you want to please God or are you motivated to do it because you want to earn God's approval or to earn anything else from God.

While I agree that if you are doing something to earn God's approval or to earn anything else from God, you are doing "dead work", it is not a precise definition if you introduce predestination into the paradigm.

With predestination, everything that does not forward God's plan is done in vain and is therefore dead work irregardless of your motives.

Are you starting to see the divergence on how you approach discipleship and ministry with the two paradigms?

Responses to My "Theology of Christian Discipleship"

As I had hoped, I received a lot comments on my "Theology of Christian Discipleship". They really fall into four categories:

1. Requests for clarification
2. Reinterpretation of predestination as God's foreknowledge and not God's action
3. Total rejection of predestination

Here are a sample of their comments and my responses.

1. Requests for clarification


• Reader's Comment:
  So, you think this is saying that we all go to heaven?
  
  My Response:
  No, only the ones that God predestined go to heaven will go to heaven. However, we do know that there will be someone from every people group among those who are predestined.
  


• Reader's Comment:
  I'm confused by what you are trying to say. God gave us all free will so we could choose whether to follow him or not, whether to live for him or not. I have no idea what you are trying to say.
  
  My Response:
  Predestination and free will are not mutually exclusive. Both are occurring simultaneously.
  
  He does give us certain level of autonomy, however, ultimately, His Will will be done.
  
  Consider Jonah. He was called to preach in Nineveh. He refused. God made sure that he gets there and preach. Did he have free will? Yes, he could have chosen not to preach when the large fish brought him to Nineveh. Did God reshape Jonah's heart so that he would fulfill what he was predestined by God to do? Yes, otherwise Jonah would not have (although begrudgingly) preached to the people in Nineveh.
  
  It comes down to, do you take the easy way and just do what God asks; or do you take the hard way and have God take extreme measures?
  
  It's your choice. Free Will.
  
  However, either way, His Will will be done.
  
  But to focus on the "predestination and free will" issue would have missed my main point.
  
  The main point is that Christian discipleship is a life long process (starting even before you accept Jesus as your Lord and savior) that God is doing in your life. More particularly, God has a uniquely tailored plan for your life.
  
  I hear many people talk about "choosing to follow Him and living for Him", but what does that mean? The problem is that it means different things to different people. Unfortunately, it sometimes means the wrong thing.
  
  In this "free wheeling" American society, too often, it means, "There's a set of good works from which I can choose to do and as long as I'm doing some of them, God would be happy."
  
  No, No, No! God has a uniquely tailored plan for your life. In that plan, there is a set of spiritual milestones that he has predestined for you.
  
  Now you have a choice, you can either
  
  
  1. Pursue any old set of good works and think that God would be satisfy that, only to force God to take extreme measures to make course corrections.
     
     or
  
  
  2. Listen for God's call and pursue His call.



2. Reinterpretation of predestination as God's foreknowledge and not God's action

Reader's Comment:
There is a difference between God ultimately knowing what choices we make, and predestination. The argument for predestination is flawed. It takes into account that God is omnipotent, omnitemporal, omniscient, etc., but seems to leave out the part about His grace and the choice that comes because of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

God knowing the outcome does not make the outcome predestined. It was part of His design to give us free will. The major gift for those who choose eternal life isn't just the eternal life, but their life here, on this Earth. That is also part of the gift of accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior. It is a gift of victory. How can we have victory if we don't have the choice to fail? God knowing the outcome does not effect the outcome since He has elected to let US choose the outcome. Ultimately, the Lord knows who is and isn't going to be in the kingdom, but He has given the slight bit of control as to us being able to choose our eternal life to us.

The ultimate act of love is to be willing to let someone go if they want to go. God would not be the loving God that He claims to be if he didn't give us to choice to not be in His kingdom for eternity.

I cannot believe the claims that God and the prophets make in the Scriptures about God loving perfectly if it is predestined as to who is and isn't saved. I can believe that God is Love if He has given us the free will to choose whether or not we want to spend eternity with Him.

People don't want to accept the fact that it is our own choice as to whether or not we spend eternity in the kingdom of Heaven with the Lord. Why? I think it is because they are looking for a cop-out, an excuse to explain why they fail at being perfect. The don't get it. We don't have to be perfect, we just have to make the choice and love the right God back.

A choice made so simple... Maybe it is too simple, especially when every religion in the world is tied up in legalisms, rites, and rituals.

My Response:
If you believe that predestination is about knowing the outcome and not causing the outcome, how do you explain:

Rom. 9:16-18
16 It does not, therefore, depend on mans desire or effort, but on Gods mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Please remember

Romans 8:30
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

By the transitive property of this statement, those he predestined, he justified and glorified. There is no condition associated with that verse. It did not say, those he predestined and yield to his call, he justified and glorified.

Please also note that, all the verbs are in the past tense. Yes, I checked with the original Greek, they are indeed in the past tense.

Do a search of the bible for the word elect and you'll see that it refers to those who are saved as the elect and that He elected us.

Can you claim that His election of us is a passive process? That he foresaw our free will?


3. Total rejection of predestination
   
   
   • Reader's Comment:
     I HATE TO DISAGREE WITH U ADVENTURER, BUT IF PREDESTINATION WAS TRUE--JESUS WOULDN'T HAVE DIED 4 OUR SINS. JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY TO GET TO HEAVEN.
     
     My Response:
     Jesus dying for us is part of God's plan. So there is not conflict between Jesus dying for us and predestination.
     
     Think of it this way. God specified the condition in which we need to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior in order for us to be saved. However, just Jesus dying on the cross would not get us to accept Him as our Savior. Our hearts are too hard. It requires God's intervention. It is after the conviction of the Holy Spirit that we are willing to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior.
     
     Consider your own journey. Did simply hearing the Gospel automatically compelled you to accept Jesus as your Savior or did the work of the Holy Spirit have something to do with it? If the latter, then God could have withheld the work of the Holy Spirit. Thus, by choosing you to apply the work of the Holy Spirit before the creation, He predestined you to be saved.
     
     But my main point is that not only does he predestined you to be saved, he also predestined you to a whole set of spiritual milestones. (see the biblical references in my previous posts.)
     
     Consider Jeremiah 1:5 (a verse the pro-lifers are always quoting):
     
     5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
     
     Do you think Jeremiah could have walked away for his destiny?
     
     Was Jonah able to walk away from his destiny?
     
     If He predestined you for a whole set of spiritual milestones which requires you to be saved, wouldn't it then be necessary for him to predestined you to be saved?
   
   
   • Reader's Comment:
     So you believe that God predestines people to be damned to hell for eternity?
     That's ridiculous. You're great at twisting the scriptures, man. What a sadistic "God" to do such a thing.
     
     My Comment:
     No, we damn ourselves by our own sin and God saves. There's a difference.
     
     The problem is that you are viewing it from an American paradigm: "Everybody deserved to be saved but their actions can disqualify some from being saved."
     
     It's just the opposite: "Everybody deserves to be damned to hell and God's action can qualifies some to be saved."
     
     If you don't believe in predestination then, explain to me the following verses.
     
     Ephesians 1:4-5
     4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
     5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will
     
     Romans 8:30
     30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
     
     Ephesians 1:11-12
     11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His Will,
     12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
     
     Acts 4:26
     27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
     
     There are a lot more verses supporting predestination.
     
     You can't pick and choose your Bible verses. They support both free will as well as predestination. But your blinders are currently not allowing you to see the possibility that both can be true simultaneously.
     
     It's ironic that those who are most vehemently opposed to predestination are the very ones who fervently defend that salvation comes from grace and not work.
     
     Can I assume that you don't consider making a choice as doing work? Irregardless, if your choice saves you, wouldn't you therefore be able to take credit for making the choice while others did not? :-)
     
     Consider Romans 9:16-18
     16 It does not, therefore, depend on mans desire or effort, but on Gods mercy.
     17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
     18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Theology of Christian Discipleship (concluding good works and dead works discussion)

My view of good works and dead works is derived from my theology of Christian discipleship in which the prime directive is Matthew 16:24-26

24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.
26 What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?

Christian discipleship is all about giving up one's own agenda (deny himself) and taking up Jesus' agenda for him (take up his cross and follow me). Whether one is willing, to do so or not, is a reflection of what is in one's heart. And it ultimately determines if one is saved or not (For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it).

The qualification of this principle is that taking up Jesus' agenda requires seeking God's plan for you. Anything outside of God's plan, irregardless of whether you or the rest of the work think it is good or not, is not good work. Even if you sincerely believe it is good, if it does not conforms to God's plan, it is not good work. Only God's plan is good work. It's all about following Christ (take up his cross and follow me).

The obvious follow-up question would be: "What's the purpose of this prime directive?"

This question can be answered with the following big picture principles.

1. We are not saved at the time we make the decision to accept Jesus as our Lord and savior. We are saved before the creation of the world. Our decision is simply one of the steps in the discipleship process.

Ephesians 1:4-5
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will


2. Everything that we experience is part of the discipleship process. It includes all our experiences, before we made the decision, in which God is calling us.

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.


3. Part of the discipleship process is the doing of good works that God has prepared in advance for us to do.

Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are Gods workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


4. Some of the good works will result in trials to develop perseverance because the development of perseverance is required for spiritual maturity.

James 1:2-4
2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds,
3 because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance.
4 Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything


5. Also accompanying the good works are the miraculous manifestations of the Holy Spirit know as Spiritual Gifts. Different Spiritual Gifts are given to different people. But they are all given for the common good. There is a common misconception that Spiritual Gifts are like magic wands that one can pull out and (bling) cause miraculous things to happen. No, a Spiritual Gift is really a set of miraculous events with common characteristics that the Holy Spirit performs but is credited to the believer.

1 Corinthians 12:7-11
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.


6. Jesus will return when all, who are predestined to be in saved, have completed their discipleship process. Those who are predestined include people from every nation, tribe, people and language. And part of our own discipleship process is to use our spiritual gifts to participate in completing the work of making disciples of people from every nation, tribe, people and language.

Act 1:7-8
7 He said to them: It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

Matthew 24:14
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Matthew 28:19-20
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in£ the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

Revelation 7:9
9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands


7. When all the good works are done, the believers that had fallen asleep (died) will rise into the air first. Then the believers who are still alive will rise up with them. And we will all meet Jesus in the air.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.


8. At that time, we will be give new glorified bodies to clothe our perfected souls.

1 Corinthians 15:50-54
50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: Death has been swallowed up in victory.


9. And as a prize for "finishing the race", we will be given the Crown of Righteousness, of Life, and of Glory.

1 Corinthian 9:24-25
24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.

2 Timothy 4:8
8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

James 1:12
12 Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

1 Peter 5:4
4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.

One last "I love you" for Amelia

Early yesterday morning, I heard a loud thumping and found my cat, Amelia, dragging herself up the stairs with her two front paws. Amelia had lost the use of her two hind legs. I immediately rushed her to the emergency veterinary clinic.

Amelia was 21 years old and for the past year, had been struggling with a breakdown of kidney functions, high blood pressure, the lost of vision in her right eye, and a heart murmur. This morning, the vet told me that Amelia also had degenerative joints in her hind leg and there's nothing she can do to allow Amelia to regain use of those legs. I had to choose between allowing her to continue to struggle with her illnesses or to put her to sleep.

Amelia was named after Amelia Earhart, the aviator because she had always wanted to fly. When I first received her as a kitten, she was already excited with the way the birds take flight. Every time she saw, through the window, a bird flying, she would jump on to the window sill and watch. And when the bird is out of sight, she would climb down to the floor and try to jump and take off. Shortly after first seeing birds fly, she climbed up the stairs and jumped from the second floor banister to the first floor. It scared me to death but she was all right. After that episode, she was Amelia Earhart.

Early yesterday morning, as I cradled Amelia in my arms stroking the top of her head and her back and listening to her heavy breath, I knew. After a life of flying in her dreams, it would be terrible to force her to crawl with her front paws for her remaining days.

As hard a decision as that was, I knew that it was time to give her back to the Lord.

I whispered, "I love you" to Amelia one last time before the vet injected her. Then I continued to stoke her as she gently fell asleep.

As I left her, I lost a huge chunk of myself; just as I had lost a large piece of me when my grandmother passed away, just as when Susie's plane crashed in Mexico, Just as when my Dad died of a heart attack.

Do animals have souls? Do they go to heaven? Suddenly, all the theology in the world doesn't matter.

Lord, please receive my baby into your arms.

Good Works and Dead Works Discussion Continues

Someone else posted a rebuttal to my response to "good works and dead works" post. He wrote:

The definition does not fall apart. You have just added more to the definition. Good works must be faith based as well. Take your guy who went to make repairs at the church. God will still bless him even if that is not what God wanted him to do. He was acting out from his heart. God judges the heart, not the motive or whether we got the "calling" right. I can't find the words here to convey what I want to say. But, God will bless all we do if our heart is right. Yes, we may do something that He didn't call us to do, but because of His grace - He will bless it.

Here's my reply:

The operative word there is grace. In another word, there is a problem that requires God extending grace.

Do we then say, I'm not going to worry about that problem because God's going to extend grace anyway? Of course not. We keep making course corrections.

I never said that we or our work are not blessed if we fall short. In fact, God blesses us and our work all the time. Sometimes, he does so for no apparent reasons but to give us joy.

It's like when you ask your child to come in for dinner. Instead of coming in right away, the child stays outside for a little longer. But, when the child comes in, the child gives you a rock and says, "I got this for you". So, you smile, say "Thank you", pat the child on the head, and get the child ready for dinner.

Just because you blessed the child for bringing you a rock, does it make the child's unresponsiveness and ridiculous effort to please you "good work"?

In the same way, God's blessing on us or our work does not validate our action(s) as good work. What kind of criteria is that?

Doing whatever things that we think is good without consulting the Lord does not constitute good work.

Believing sincerely that it is good does not make it good.

Ephesians 3:10
For we are Gods workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

There is indeed a set of good works that God has reserved for us to do.

Good works require that you seek out what God wants.

Not doing so would be you telling God what He wants.

There are too many people who says, I'm good at (whatever that person is good at), so therefore that's what God wants me to do. That's just backward.

We need to ask, "God, what do you want me to do?" And then discern if what we are good at fits into what God wants.

Here's my gripe. While we are on this side of eternity, we are in the business of being perfected in our faith. Too often, people stick tight to whatever they've been doing for the nth number of years because "they are now good at it", never stepping out of their comfort zone, never allowing their faith to be stretched.

Their excuse: "The ministry would be more effective if I stay at this position."

I want to scream, "GOD DOES NOT NEED YOU TO DO ANYTHING!!!!!!!!! HE CAN DO IT HIMSELF!!!!!!!!!! HE CALLS YOU TO COME ALONG FOR YOUR BENEFIT!!!!!!!"

If you are truly interested in doing good works, you need to be seeking what God wants you to do.

Good Works and Dead Works

The person, who objected to my post entitled "You think you are saved but are you, really?", started a new thread entitled "good works vs. dead works".

He wrote the following:

Good works are doing things because God loves you and you love Him.

Dead works are doing things in an attempt to earn something from God or to make you more "acceptable" to Him.

We are qualified for all the promises of God, not based on anything we do but based on what Jesus did.

I suspected that he's unhappy with me insisting that saving faith requires a step of faith.

Here's my reply:

It looks like your definition of good and dead work is driven by the principle that you can not earn your salvation and by extension, you can not earn God's love.

While I agree that you can neither earn your salvation nor God's love, I don't find it an appropriate way to define good and dead work.

The problem is that to do so, you will only be defining the terms within a limited set of conditions and your definition would fail to apply universally.

By your definition, whether the deed is good work or dead is determined by motive. Is it out of gratitude or is it out of a desire to gain something? While that may apply in some cases, does it apply to all cases?

e.g., If a person who is saved is so grateful that he ran to the nearest church he can find and started doing yard work and fixing broken fixtures. Would that be good works? (Assuming that he asked someone with authority in the church.)

His motive is driven by gratitude and not by desire to get something from God.

Well, what if God didn't intend for him to do so? What if God had wanted him to do something else?

Is what he did still considered good work?

What if God had intended someone else to do the work and this guy prevented that someone else from doing it?

Is what he did still considered good work?

If a person yields to God's call with joy but is motivated by the promise that God would bless him for doing it, would that be considered dead works?

As you can see the definition falls apart in this case.

Let's define these term a little bit more universally.

Good work is that which you are called by God to do and you do so with a joyful heart.

Dead work is that which you are not called by God to do or that which you do begrudgingly.

As for your statement:

We are qualified for all the promises of God, not based on anything we do but based on what Jesus did.

You are now in the area of the debate between predestination and free choice. This is an area over which Christians have be arguing since the first century.

If Abraham withheld his son Isaac from God, would Abraham had been counted righteous?

If Jesus didn't die on the cross, but Abraham was obedient to God's call to sacrifice Isaac, would Abraham had been counted righteous?

Someone bit!

As some of you have guessed, my starting a new thread, entitled "You think you are saved but are you, really?" in one of the Christian discussion groups, was to bait some members of that group. For those of you who written me, I apologize for not replying immediately. I wanted to wait for someone to bite before explaining myself.

Today, someone bit. Here is his response to my post:

How ridiculous.

This post reminds me of the old baptist churches that I used to go to when I was a kid where at the end of EVERY service the preacher or leader would ask all of us 20 times " are you sure you're saved? are you sure?? do you really know? if you died tonight would you go to hell? are you sure you're saved? do you know for sure? you might think you are but you might not be. you have to be sure. are you sure? do you really know if you're going to heaven? are you sure? you've gotta be sure. so are you sure? you can't just think you are, you've gotta know. do you know? are you sure?? "

What a great way to instill doubt into a child's heart concerning his salvation! I remember the same kids going down front to "get saved" almost every week.

No where in Scripture did Jesus, Paul, or anyone else write a letter asking 5, 659 times "ARE YOU SURE YOU'RE SAVED?????"'

Here's what's required to be born again:

Romans 10:9-10
"That if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you WILL be saved. For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

This is the qualification to know if you're born again.

Stop trying to make people question their salvation, man. If you want to ask them something, then ask them if they have obeyed Romans 10:9-10. That settles it!

Or ask them "Do you believe that Jesus is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead?" That's the qualification! A person either believes it or they don't.



Here's my response:

Asking "Do you believe that Jesus is Lord" is precisely what my post is about.

In the first part of my post I equated "believing in Jesus" with "being saved".

Afterward, in my post, I used the two interchangeably.

If replacing every instance of "Are you really saved?" with "Do you believe that Jesus is Lord?" is required before you are able to read my post objectively, feel free to do so.

But to dwell on that point would be missing my main point.

We know from Luke 13:23-27 (see my initial post for the text), that there are people, who congregate with the Body of Christ and think that they are saved but are not. If you don't like this statement, you can argue with our Lord.

If they are not made aware of their delusion of being saved, they will spend the other side of eternity in hell.

Why are they not aware of their unsaved state?

Most often, in my encounters, no one took the time to fully explain what it means to believe that Jesus is Lord.

In fact, the kids, that you mentioned, that continues to walk down the aisle every week "to be saved" (irregardless of whether they are saved or not) is a prime example of people who do not have a full understanding of what it takes to be saved. If they did, would they be confused about their salvation simply by someone questioning if they are really saved? Of course not!

The main problem is that in the past several decades, the Christian evangelical movement has presented a Madison Avenue'esque version of the Gospel. It is an unbalanced version which emphasized Jesus as our savior without counterbalancing it with emphasis on Jesus as Lord.

Too often, people gets the false impression that Jesus is this cosmic genie to which one marches down the aisle, says the magic words and (bling) one gets a "get out of hell" card and one's life suddenly becomes wonderful.

In my ministry, that false impression causes more kids to stumble than anything else.

I'm not saying that this misconception is being preached. I'm, however, saying that the de-emphasis of Jesus as Lord causes the misperception.

Too often, it is not explained that to believe that Jesus is Lord:
1) You have to believe that Jesus is your Lord, i.e., you are willing to obey Jesus.
2) You have to believe that Jesus is the Lord of all, capable of protecting and providing for you in all circumstances when you are being obedient to Him.

That's why I quoted Matthew 6:31-33 in my initial post.

So do not worry, saying, What shall we eat? or What shall we drink? or What shall we wear? For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

These three verses are an illustration of
1) believing Jesus is your Lord (seek first his kingdom and his righteousness)
2) believing Jesus is the Lord of all (all these things will be given to you as well)


If you fail to believe that Jesus is your Lord, do you really believe that Jesus is Lord?
If you fail to believe that Jesus is the Lord of all, do you really believe that Jesus is Lord?

And if you do not believe that Jesus is Lord, are you saved?

That is why I posted the story of Blondin. If you are not willing get on when Jesus says get on, do you really believe? Do you believe that He is your lord? Do you believe that He is the Lord of all?

And if not, are you saved?

I do not regret asking if someone is really saved. Those who are saved will not loose their salvation. If my question causes one single person who is not saved to re-examine if Jesus is his or her Lord and cause that person to accept Jesus as Lord, the minor discomfort of those who are already saved is a small price to pay.

p.s., As you can see, my unhappiness with the state of the Church is not that there are members who are not pursuing the Kingdom of God. It's because there are member who are misled by a cheap Gospel and they may very well be excluded from the Kingdom of God and pay for their ignorance with their souls.

Stupid Questions to Mock Jews and Christians

There's a set of stupid questions, being circulated around the internet, that mocks the Jews and Christians. Most Christians simply identifies it as that and don't bother to give an answer (apologia) to them. However, I'e always thought that to no give an answer is a greater mockery of God's words. Tonight, I finally found time to answer those questions.

First, the questions:

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev.1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?


2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?


3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.


4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?


5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?


6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?


7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?


8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?


9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?


10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble
    of getting the whole town together to stone them (Lev.24:10-16)? Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Here are my answers.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev.1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
   
   No, if you do God would smite you for not loving your neighbor. Loving God and your neighbor is far more important than sacrifices.
   
   Mark 12:28-34
   28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
   29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
   30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
   31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
   32 "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.
   33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
   34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
   


2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
   
   The Hebrew word in Exodus 21:7 that was translated to slave is "amah"; in KJV it is translated to maidservant.
   
   To take Exodus 21:7 by itself it take it out of context. The entire text composed of 21:7-11
   
   
   7 "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.
   8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her.
   9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter.
   10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights.
   11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.
   
   As you can see from those verses, the term amah was being referred to someone who is being given in marriage.
   
   The terms ebed (bondman/servant) and amah (bondwoman/servant) refers to people who serves but are to be treated as a member of the family (see the laws referring to the treatment of servants). In fact, both servant and master must agree to the arrangement. Usually, the former agrees because that party or his/her parents needed the money to pay a debt. However, on the Jubilee year, all debts are forgiven and servants are to be freed. i.e., Nobody should have to be a bondservant for more than six years. (The Jubilee year is the seventh year.)
   
   This relationship is an illustration of how we sinners are a slave to sin but are redeemed and freed by the Lord when the time comes.
   
   The time, of course, came when Jesus died on the cross to redeem us. From this point forward, there is no long the need to illustrate this point.
   


3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
   
   The only woman, with whom you may have sexual relationship, is your wife and you will certainly know if the woman to whom you are married is going through her menstrual period; most certainly you can ask her without her taking offense


4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

   The term slave in Hebrew can also be translate to servant.
   
   See answer to question 2.
   

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
   
   No
   
   Matthew 12:1-7
   1 At that time Jesus went through the grain fields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them
   2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."
   3 He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry?
   4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated breadwhich was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests.
   5 Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?
   6 I tell you that one greater than the temple is here.
   7 If you had known what these words mean, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice, you would not have condemned the innocent.
   


6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
   
   See answer to question 9.
   


7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
   
   The verses in Lev 21 are qualifications to be the priest who offer sacrifice. These qualifications include more than eye sight; any defect including skin blemishes would disqualify the person.
   
   This illustrates the principle that any sin (translated from hamartano, the Greek word for missing the mark) disqualifies one from approaching God. However, in Jesus and through faith in Him we may approach God.
   
   Ephesians 3:7-12
   7I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of his power.
   8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
   9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
   10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,
   11 according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
   12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.
   


8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?
   
   Only if practicing divination or witchcraft and only by God's hand.
   
   The verses in that section of scripture refer to practices of divination and witchcraft at that time: the way the hair is cut, the way the beard is trimmed, the gashing of flesh for the dead, and tattoos.
   
   Lev.19:26-28
   26 You shall not eat anything with its blood. You shall not practice augury or witchcraft. 27 You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard. 28 You shall not make any gashes in your flesh for the dead or tattoo any marks upon you: I am the LORD.
   


9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
   
   God revealed to Peter that He had made the unclean food clean.
   
   Acts 10:9-15
   9 About noon the next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat; and while it was being prepared, he fell into a trance.
   11 He saw the heaven opened and something like a large sheet coming down, being lowered to the ground by its four corners.
   12 In it were all kinds of four-footed creatures and reptiles and birds of the air.
   13 Then he heard a voice saying, "Get up, Peter; kill and eat."
   14 But Peter said, "By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is profane or unclean."
   15 The voice said to him again, a second time, "What God has made clean, you must not call profane."
   


10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble
    of getting the whole town together to stone them (Lev.24:10-16)? Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
    
    It is only necessary if you can find someone who is without sin to cast the first stone.
    
    John 8:7
    When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.
    
    And if you think you can find someone who is without sin, don't bother.
    
    Romans 3:23
    for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Not feeling encouraging, continues to another day

As you can tell from my last two blog entries that I have been very unhappy with the state of the church in America. So, instead of responding to other people's posts, I decided to start a new discussion thread

It is called, "You think you are saved but are you, really?" I took its contents from one of my previous blog entries but it had a different prespective.

Here's the my initial post in the new thread:

We know John 3:16:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

If you are saved by believing, what does it mean to believe?

James 2:18-19 says:

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that and shudder.

In fact, Jesus forsees people who thought that they were save but really weren't. See Luke 13:23:

Someone asked him, Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?

He said to them, Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, Sir, open the door for us.

But he will answer, I dont know you or where you come from.

Then you will say, We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.

But he will reply, I dont know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!

Jesus was talking about people who ate and drank with Christ (The Church is the Body of Christ - Corpus Christi), people who come to church and partake of the last supper.

Are you really saved?

In Matthew 6:31-33 Jesus decribed life of a disciple like this:

So do not worry, saying, What shall we eat? or What shall we drink? or What shall we wear? For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Do you believe? Trust in Jesus enough to put seeking His kingdom and righteousness before anything else in your life? If asked by God, would you be willing to give up your home, your career, your retirement account, your current girlfriend/boyfriend and trust that Jesus would provide?

Are your really saved?


Consider this story:

Charles Blondin (real name: Jean François Gravelet) was a tight-rope walker who performed around the previous turn of the century (late 1800s). He would walk on a rope strung between two skyscrapers, on a rope hung over Niagara Falls, ....

At the beginning of his act he would always ask his audience if they believe he can do it.

Usually, there is silence.

He would walk across and back.

Then he would attempt doing it again but with a more complicated task like walking the rope while rolling a wheel barrow. And before he does, he would ask the audience if they believe he can do it.

He would walk across and back with the wheel barrow.

Then he would attempt doing it again but with a even more complicated task like having a 200 pound sack of potato in the wheel barrow.

Just as before, he would ask the audience if they believe he can do it.

By this time, the audience was sure he can do it and expressed themselves appropriately.

He would walk across and back with a wheel barrow containing the sack of potatoes.

Finally, he would attempt doing it again but carrying a person (200 lb or less) across.

Just as before, he would ask the audience if they believe he can do it.

By now, I can imagine the audience screaming, "We believe! We believe! We believe!"

Then, Blondin would turn to one member of the audience and say, "Get on!"

When Jesus said to you, "Get on!", did you?

Are you really saved?

Never, in Blondin's tight rope walking career, did any member of the audience get on. But Blondin always carried a person across. He always carried his agent across.

That's what it takes to be saved. To be willing to give up all your safety nets and let Jesus carry you across. And that is what the world should see when they look at your life. That is how you can be an agent for Christ.

Are you really saved?

Not feeling encouraging, continues

One of the young ladies in the Christian forum responded to my post with the following:

"Last month, I posted a request for testimonies of what God has been doing in their lives. I had only 3 contributors. Don't tell me it's the lack of time. They certainly have time to argue like pharases and saduces."


I tried to start a thread the month before that about blessings people have experienced. People didn't want to post there either...and it moved on down the list.

And personally, the arguing "like pharases and saduces" has been a GREAT blessing in my life. Being able to discuss these issues in here has reinforced what I believe in some areas and helped me figure out what I believe in others. It has sent me back into the Word with a passion I have missed for a while after a hard rejection delivered to me by Christians. Just because debate/discussion of issues isn't your MO doesn't mean it doesn't help others.

Perhaps some of us post in other threads because they are where we see a need and we hope that we can do some good....and we hope that our lives in te real world are evidence enough of Christ's work in us. It isn't always the case the God isn't working in us.

Here is my reply:

Sarah, you took that portion of my post without context, without my main point.

The post to which my post was responding, was hoping to encourage those who are facing opposition while standing up for Christ. My response was that it's a rare problem.

A more prevalent problem is people protecting their worldly assets and expending only leftover resources for the Kingdom. I stand by this statement.

Sarah, if you read my blogs you'd know that I'm heavily involved with apologetics. I don't have a problem with debate and discussions. In fact, that's how I teach my classes, using the Socratic method.

I mentioned "people debating about this issue or that issue" because I've seen too many people use it as a device to avoid moving forward towards developing one's character, a character which would "Deny yourself, pick up the cross, and follow Him." I stand by this statement as well.

Ironically, what you said is precisely what I identify as one of the problems. It's the difference between knowing about Christ and knowing Christ.

It's like when a group of people are reading a biography of Pres. George W. Bush. They spend their time arguing over their interpretations of the events in his life. In the mean time, George W. walks up to them and say "Hey y'all want to come fishing with me?" And the group says, no, we need to study your biography and discuss the fine points of your life."

Jesus is not satisfy with you knowing about Him. He wants you to know Him. And that takes place when you physically interact with Him; as you hear His call, you take steps of faith, and He carries you across.

There is a lack of that type of interactions in the lives of the members the church. I stand by this statement.

Worse, yet, often these discussions turn ugly because "knowing Christ" was no longer the focus. Often it's about who gets to take credit for being right. Don't tell me that you haven't seen that happen often.

I don't care in which thread people post. That's not the point.

American Christians have difficulty deciding between serving Jesus and serving mammon. I stand by this statement!

Not having an abundance of testimonies is simply a symptom of this problem.

Not feeling encouraging today

In one of the MySpace Christian discussion groups, someone posted the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego from Daniel 3 as an encouragement to those in the group who feel like they are standing alone in the secular world. For some reason, I just don't feel encouraged by it. I was in a foul mood when I started reading it and after reading it I became even more frustrated. So I wrote the following response:



LOL... While I agree with what you posted, I'm not sure you address the correct problem.

Is the problem, really, that Christians are trying to do what God is calling them to do and are faced with obstacles? Come on! What percentage of Christians are actually listening for God's call much less following His call?

Jesus said, "Repent!" (take an 180 degree turn in your perspectives), yet, there are those who calls themselves Christians and insists it's ok to be gay. (Do you see any repenting there?)

Jesus said, "If you want to come after me, you must deny yourself, pick up the cross and following me." How much denying of oneself is there within the church?

Jesus said, "So do not worry, saying, What shall we eat? or What shall we drink? or What shall we wear? For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well."

Ask any random person in church, "Are you willing to give up your career, retirement benefits, your comfortable home, your girlfriend/boyfriend, etc. if the Lord asks you to?" Do you think they are not going to try to wig out of that one?

Poppycock! The major problem today is that most Christians are chasing worldly stuff while trying not to do "wrong" and occasionally, they may toss in a token goodwill gesture.

Why? Too many Christians are willing to accept Jesus as their savior but are not willing to accept Him as their Lord. All they see is a "Get out of hell" card.

Sure they debate about this issue or that issue; you can read them in this forum. They might as well be one of the Pharisees or Sadducees.

What, in their lives, do they have to show for their citizenship in the Kingdom of God?

Last month, I posted a request for testimonies of what God has been doing in their lives. I had only 3 contributors. Don't tell me it's the lack of time. They certainly have time to argue like Pharisees or Sadducees.

No, I believe that it's because God hadn't been doing much in their lives.

Prove me wrong! Post your testimonies of what God has been doing recently in your lives. If you've been a believer more than a year, don't be posting your conversion story; if you do, it just means that God hasn't been doing diddly in your lives recently.

Heroes in the War of Life

My friend, Shannon, despite an incredibly tough year, came through strong. Now, she's being stalked by some strange guy; and, yesterday, her dog got really sick.

I wanted to write something encouraging and fun for her, so I write the following:


Heroes in the War of Life

Life is a war
through which heroes are made
against cheating spouse dragons
in the relationship charade.

Get pass the stalker freak
and the doggie poop grenade.
Then, we, heroes, will dance
at the victory parade.