As I had hoped, I received a lot comments on my "Theology of Christian Discipleship". They really fall into four categories:
- Requests for clarification
- Reinterpretation of predestination as God's foreknowledge and not God's action
- Total rejection of predestination
- Requests for clarification
- Reader's Comment:
So, you think this is saying that we all go to heaven?
My Response:
No, only the ones that God predestined go to heaven will go to heaven. However, we do know that there will be someone from every people group among those who are predestined. - Reader's Comment:
I'm confused by what you are trying to say. God gave us all free will so we could choose whether to follow him or not, whether to live for him or not. I have no idea what you are trying to say.
My Response:
Predestination and free will are not mutually exclusive. Both are occurring simultaneously.
He does give us certain level of autonomy, however, ultimately, His Will will be done.
Consider Jonah. He was called to preach in Nineveh. He refused. God made sure that he gets there and preach. Did he have free will? Yes, he could have chosen not to preach when the large fish brought him to Nineveh. Did God reshape Jonah's heart so that he would fulfill what he was predestined by God to do? Yes, otherwise Jonah would not have (although begrudgingly) preached to the people in Nineveh.
It comes down to, do you take the easy way and just do what God asks; or do you take the hard way and have God take extreme measures?
It's your choice. Free Will.
However, either way, His Will will be done.
But to focus on the "predestination and free will" issue would have missed my main point.
The main point is that Christian discipleship is a life long process (starting even before you accept Jesus as your Lord and savior) that God is doing in your life. More particularly, God has a uniquely tailored plan for your life.
I hear many people talk about "choosing to follow Him and living for Him", but what does that mean? The problem is that it means different things to different people. Unfortunately, it sometimes means the wrong thing.
In this "free wheeling" American society, too often, it means, "There's a set of good works from which I can choose to do and as long as I'm doing some of them, God would be happy."
No, No, No! God has a uniquely tailored plan for your life. In that plan, there is a set of spiritual milestones that he has predestined for you.
Now you have a choice, you can either- Pursue any old set of good works and think that God would be satisfy that, only to force God to take extreme measures to make course corrections.
or - Listen for God's call and pursue His call.
- Pursue any old set of good works and think that God would be satisfy that, only to force God to take extreme measures to make course corrections.
- Reinterpretation of predestination as God's foreknowledge and not God's action
- Total rejection of predestination
- Reader's Comment:
I HATE TO DISAGREE WITH U ADVENTURER, BUT IF PREDESTINATION WAS TRUE--JESUS WOULDN'T HAVE DIED 4 OUR SINS. JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY TO GET TO HEAVEN.
My Response:
Jesus dying for us is part of God's plan. So there is not conflict between Jesus dying for us and predestination.
Think of it this way. God specified the condition in which we need to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior in order for us to be saved. However, just Jesus dying on the cross would not get us to accept Him as our Savior. Our hearts are too hard. It requires God's intervention. It is after the conviction of the Holy Spirit that we are willing to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior.
Consider your own journey. Did simply hearing the Gospel automatically compelled you to accept Jesus as your Savior or did the work of the Holy Spirit have something to do with it? If the latter, then God could have withheld the work of the Holy Spirit. Thus, by choosing you to apply the work of the Holy Spirit before the creation, He predestined you to be saved.
But my main point is that not only does he predestined you to be saved, he also predestined you to a whole set of spiritual milestones. (see the biblical references in my previous posts.)
Consider Jeremiah 1:5 (a verse the pro-lifers are always quoting):
5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
Do you think Jeremiah could have walked away for his destiny?
Was Jonah able to walk away from his destiny?
If He predestined you for a whole set of spiritual milestones which requires you to be saved, wouldn't it then be necessary for him to predestined you to be saved? - Reader's Comment:
So you believe that God predestines people to be damned to hell for eternity?
That's ridiculous. You're great at twisting the scriptures, man. What a sadistic "God" to do such a thing.
My Comment:
No, we damn ourselves by our own sin and God saves. There's a difference.
The problem is that you are viewing it from an American paradigm: "Everybody deserved to be saved but their actions can disqualify some from being saved."
It's just the opposite: "Everybody deserves to be damned to hell and God's action can qualifies some to be saved."
If you don't believe in predestination then, explain to me the following verses.
Ephesians 1:4-5
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will
Romans 8:30
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:11-12
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His Will,
12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
Acts 4:26
27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
There are a lot more verses supporting predestination.
You can't pick and choose your Bible verses. They support both free will as well as predestination. But your blinders are currently not allowing you to see the possibility that both can be true simultaneously.
It's ironic that those who are most vehemently opposed to predestination are the very ones who fervently defend that salvation comes from grace and not work.
Can I assume that you don't consider making a choice as doing work? Irregardless, if your choice saves you, wouldn't you therefore be able to take credit for making the choice while others did not? :-)
Consider Romans 9:16-18
16 It does not, therefore, depend on mans desire or effort, but on Gods mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
- Reader's Comment:
Reader's Comment:
There is a difference between God ultimately knowing what choices we make, and predestination. The argument for predestination is flawed. It takes into account that God is omnipotent, omnitemporal, omniscient, etc., but seems to leave out the part about His grace and the choice that comes because of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.
God knowing the outcome does not make the outcome predestined. It was part of His design to give us free will. The major gift for those who choose eternal life isn't just the eternal life, but their life here, on this Earth. That is also part of the gift of accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior. It is a gift of victory. How can we have victory if we don't have the choice to fail? God knowing the outcome does not effect the outcome since He has elected to let US choose the outcome. Ultimately, the Lord knows who is and isn't going to be in the kingdom, but He has given the slight bit of control as to us being able to choose our eternal life to us.
The ultimate act of love is to be willing to let someone go if they want to go. God would not be the loving God that He claims to be if he didn't give us to choice to not be in His kingdom for eternity.
I cannot believe the claims that God and the prophets make in the Scriptures about God loving perfectly if it is predestined as to who is and isn't saved. I can believe that God is Love if He has given us the free will to choose whether or not we want to spend eternity with Him.
People don't want to accept the fact that it is our own choice as to whether or not we spend eternity in the kingdom of Heaven with the Lord. Why? I think it is because they are looking for a cop-out, an excuse to explain why they fail at being perfect. The don't get it. We don't have to be perfect, we just have to make the choice and love the right God back.
A choice made so simple... Maybe it is too simple, especially when every religion in the world is tied up in legalisms, rites, and rituals.
My Response:
If you believe that predestination is about knowing the outcome and not causing the outcome, how do you explain:
Rom. 9:16-18
16 It does not, therefore, depend on mans desire or effort, but on Gods mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Please remember
Romans 8:30
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
By the transitive property of this statement, those he predestined, he justified and glorified. There is no condition associated with that verse. It did not say, those he predestined and yield to his call, he justified and glorified.
Please also note that, all the verbs are in the past tense. Yes, I checked with the original Greek, they are indeed in the past tense.
Do a search of the bible for the word elect and you'll see that it refers to those who are saved as the elect and that He elected us.
Can you claim that His election of us is a passive process? That he foresaw our free will?
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