How can you believe in a God that expects parents to kill their disobedient children?

I had several personal topics lined up to post on my blog (web log) today, but once again, a forum discussion forced me in that direction.

The initial post that started the discussion is:

18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid."

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

Whatdya reckon?



Most of the replies were along the line of "We are now under grace and that the Old Testament laws no longer apply."

Harry, a self-professed atheist (he didn't use the word, he simply said that he didn't believe in God), then disputes the assertion that the Old Testament laws no longer apply and accused the participants of picking and choosing what they like from the Bible.

Then there were some bizarre replies, including one which stated that "The Law" that still applies consists only of the 10 Commandments.

Near the end of the discussion, Harry stated that he didn't believe in God because there is no proof. In reply, Brad, another participant in the discussion, stated that, "My Bible is evidence."

Harry pointed out to Brad that he is using circular logic:

I'm afraid it really isn't. All it does is trap you in circular reasoning.

Bill: "God must exist."
Jill: "How do you know."
Bill: "Because the Bible says so."
Jill: "Why should I believe the Bible?"
Bill: "Because the Bible was written by God."

And around and around and around we go.


To which Brad replied:

Blah, Blah , Blah

That's all I gathered from those's statements.


Oh, Boy! Or as my Jewish friends would say... "Oyvey!"

Here's my post:



I just read through this thread of discussion. Wow, just when I thought it couldn't get uglier, it did.

I hope I can bring this discussion back to the point were we are all seeking the truth.


I do agree with Harry on several points:

1. "The Law" is not just the 10 Commandments (actually, the Bible never enumerated them as 10). "The Law" is translated from the Hebrew word "Torah" (spelled using Hebrew characters) which refers to the first 5 books. The entire Old Testament is know as the TNAK (a word formed using the first letter of the name of each section of the Hebrew Scripture).
   


2. "The Law" is not to be discarded with the coming of the Messiah.
   


3. The Bible supplies insufficient evidence to prove that God exists.
   

However, to understand Christian Theology, one must take a broader perspective then simply picking out verses here and there.

For starter, the Torah encompasses more than just the regulations specified in Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy. It starts with Genesis which says, God created man in his own image. The Biblical God intended man to be like Him. In Romans 3:23, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." The word sin was translated from the original Greek word hamartano (spelled using Greek characters). This word is a secular word, an archery term for missing the mark. When we fail to meet the criteria (carrying His image), we missed the mark; we sinned. The regulations, like those in the 10 commandments are just example of missing the mark.

Nobody has ever hit the mark. So all this talk about killing disobedient children is a bit moot. Even if you kill your disobedient children, you are still failing to hit the mark in so many other areas.

And as Brad has pointed out in Romans 6:23, "the wages of sin is death".

So "The Law" condemns us all to death, anyway.

Basically, the Biblical God demands perfection in our ability to be like him. He created us for that purpose and when we are not up to par, there's no point in keeping around something that doesn't work.

e.g., If an engineer designs a circuit board to convert AC power to DC power and it fails to do so, does he keep the board in the system?

Harry, I can understand why you may feel that this is a bit harsh and close your opinion of the Biblical God but I beg that you keep your mind open for a little bit longer.

Continuing with the engineer analogy, the engineer now has two options: discard the non-working part or fix the non-working part. In modern day production, it's usually cheaper to discard the non-working part.

The Biblical God, however, chose to keep the non-working part.

Now we encounter the dilemma.

He made the rule that sin must be paid with death (THE LAW) and He can not violate it.

But He loves us too much to allow us to pay that price.

So, He took the form of a man and paid the price on the cross.


The question of the day, of course, is: Is this true?

I know that it is true.

The obvious response to that statement is: prove it.

Brad's response was: My Bible is evidence.

Harry, as I had stated before, I agree with you. The Bible does not supply sufficient evidence.

In fact, I don't think that the statement, "My Bible is evidence", is theologically sound.

Our faith is based on experiential evidence resulting from an encounter with the living creator being. And that encounter causes us to see and acknowledge that we need help in fulfilling our essence as the bearer of God's image. At which point, the Spirit of God comes and dwells in us and calls us to take steps of faith. And when we do, we see that God is trustworthy, re-enforcing our faith and perfecting our ability to emulate God.

Unfortunately, this proof is only good for the person experiencing it.

I can tell you about all the amazing things that had happened to me due to the presence of the Spirit of God in my life. In fact, you may even be traveling around the world with me and seeing the amazing things that I'm experiencing. However, a skeptic can always find reasons to account for the unusual events.

Why? A large and important component of the proof will never be available to the listener: experiencing God's presence.

It's like Carl Sagan's book Contact. The main character, Ellie Arroway, rode in the "Machine" through a worm-hole to another world to experience an encounter with another life-form, but came back to earth without any instrumentation to prove that it actually happened. Is the lack of instrumentation the proof that it didn't happened even if she experienced it?

Harry, I can not give you the proof that you require. The only way you can get your proof is if you were to experience it.

To that end, I will pray that the living creator being, reveals Himself to you.

May the Lord Almighty bless you.